संसृति कुमारी ([info]zoeimogen) wrote,
@ 2009-03-16 21:53:00
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Current mood: contemplative

Knots I Need To Know For Abseiling and other stuff



And I need to buy more Carabiners, 6mm accessory cord, webbing, Rapide links and a helmet. I think a ropebag might be handy too.

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[info]auntysarah
2009-03-16 11:33 pm UTC (link)
The Double Fishermen is a bend, but the name, "Fisherman's Bend" is, AIUI, already taken by something else, which is, confusingly, not a bend. The knot we want is either a "(Double) Fisherman's Knot" or a "Grapevine Bend".

While on pedantry, the Prusik hitch is spelled thusly, after Dr Prusik. Prussic is cyanide.

Also, European Death Knot/Offset Overhand Bend, for joining two ropes, when you want a smooth pull after abseiling (I guess you'd combine with a biner block an abseil down the side without the EDK, so you a) wouldn't have to pass it, and b) wouldn't rely on its strength).

Sheet Bend, for tying two ropes of different diameter together.

Girth Hitch for clipping onto the anchor with your Purcell Prusik.

Overhand in a bight is handy for webbing anchors.

Both the last two are trivial.

Edited at 2009-03-16 11:35 pm UTC

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[info]zoeimogen
2009-03-17 09:43 am UTC (link)
The Double Fishermen is a bend, but the name, "Fisherman's Bend" is, AIUI, already taken by something else, which is, confusingly, not a bend. The knot we want is either a "(Double) Fisherman's Knot" or a "Grapevine Bend".

That's been confusing me a lot, yes. I think I might start calling it a Grapevine bend, but Wikipedia doesn't know about that name so it seems less common.

And Wikipedia thinks Prussic is a valid spelling too, but I've changed it to keep you happy. :-)

Also, European Death Knot/Offset Overhand Bend, for joining two ropes, when you want a smooth pull after abseiling

Not sure I follow, "smooth pull after abseiling"? I didn't include it because I couldn't think of a situation where one would use it over an alpine butterfly bend.

Sheet Bend, for tying two ropes of different diameter together.

Ah, yes, I forgot that one - useful if you need to attach accessory cord to the main rope or similar.

I didn't include the last two on the grounds of being blindingly bloody obvious, as you note. :-) (Although also not particularly safe in the case of the girth hitch if you need it to arrest a fall)

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[info]auntysarah
2009-03-17 10:10 am UTC (link)
Not sure I follow, "smooth pull after abseiling"?

Easiest way to demonstrate is probably to tie two bits of rope together with one and then pull it across an uneven object as you would when retrieving the rope after abseiling - note how the knot part stays away from the surface itself, thanks to the knot being asymmetric. This makes it a lot less likely to get snagged than a grapevine bend.

You can tie an offset version of the grapevine bend which has the same asymmetric property, and is probably safer than the European Death Knot, and I understand some canyoneers are now doing that, but it's not been popularised yet.

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[info]zoeimogen
2009-03-17 10:36 am UTC (link)
Easiest way to demonstrate is probably to tie two bits of rope together with one and then pull it across an uneven object as you would when retrieving the rope after abseiling - note how the knot part stays away from the surface itself, thanks to the knot being asymmetric.

OK, I think I see what you mean there...

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[info]cmcmck
2009-03-17 08:48 am UTC (link)
Maybe you need to join the Girl Guides? VBG

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[info]zoeimogen
2009-03-17 09:36 am UTC (link)
Oddly, the main knot such organisations seem to teach is the reef knot. This mostly seems to be useful for BDSM...

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[info]cmcmck
2009-03-17 01:27 pm UTC (link)
Being a plain vanilla sorta gal, I'm sure I don't have the slightest idea what you mean.......... :o)

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[info]the_local_echo
2009-03-17 06:33 pm UTC (link)
I learned the reef knot in the Brownies/Girl Guides. I think I use it for tying parcels up with string.

Sadly my local village groups didn't do much interesting outdoorsy stuff at all. It was all about church fundraising and filling in workbooks about hypothetical good deeds.

I did get to go on a "camping weekend" once, but it was horribly dumbed-down. We were taken to a grim municipal campground in the suburbs next to lots of drunk people in motorhomes, slept in gigantic marquee-sized tents that we weren't allowed to put up ourselves, and the highlight of the weekend was a "camp-fire sing-song" which had to take place in an empty circle without a camp-fire because site regulations prohibited fires. And they gave us bright yellow mats to sit on for the sing-song, which attracted insects. Ugh!

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[info]cmcmck
2009-03-17 08:15 pm UTC (link)
Have to admit I learned my camping as a young hippy thing at festivals. These days, I tend to camp in these places called 'hotels' :o)

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[info]pungoose
2009-03-19 10:34 pm UTC (link)
Brown paper packages, tied up with string...

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[info]taffyboy
2009-03-17 09:30 am UTC (link)
For basic abseiling, that's *more* than enough.

Note that one of the key uses of the Alpine butterfly is 3-way loading. That is, the figure eight can only be loaded inline - from the live rope, down through the knot and loop. If you apply two loads to the loop with an angle of more than about 45deg between them, you run the risk of the knot unfolding over itself.

Also, the butterfly doesn't lock so badly when it's shock loaded - far easier to undo.

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[info]zoeimogen
2009-03-17 09:35 am UTC (link)
For basic abseiling, that's *more* than enough.

Yup - we're doing canyoneering and it seems sensible to be very overprepared doing such things. There is no mobile phone signal down there and even if there was, the rangers would still have to hike part of the way - helicopters and 4x4s can't get in!

Yes, I like the butterfly for the reasons you describe above. Not entirely sure why one would need a figure eight actually, except that it's marginally eaiser to tie.

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[info]millicent_h
2009-03-17 01:26 pm UTC (link)
Remind me to check the life insurance ;-)

I had the chance to abseil a long time ago but I was too scared to even climb to the top of the platform!

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[info]zoeimogen
2009-03-17 01:33 pm UTC (link)
What we did last time was covered by standard travel insurance. This time... we'll need a bit extra. :-)

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[info]zoeimogen
2009-03-17 01:34 pm UTC (link)
P.S. what dates are you on holiday this year?

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[info]millicent_h
2009-03-18 01:42 pm UTC (link)
Will email you the dates! Z's wellies didn't turn up but he still went to Forest School :-)

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[info]katsmeat
2009-03-17 02:59 pm UTC (link)
This is an excellent book. Though I usually find I need to do task X with rope, look up the best knot/bend/hitch and how to tie it in the book but will have completely forgotten how by the next time, it's needed. It's a good job I'm vanilla as I imagine that would somewhat break the flow in a BDSM context to be constantly referring to this.

Also, there appears to be some obscure EU regulation that requires every single cheap, remaindered bookshop to have a stack of copies for £3.50. Right next to the "auto"-biographies of soap actors and footballers, the books on Feng Shui and the giant colour encyclopedias of World-War-2 tanks.

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[info]auntysarah
2009-03-19 10:00 am UTC (link)
One doesn't actually use many knots in BDSM ropework, the idea being you need to be able to release it all quickly, and if you have to resort to cutting the rope with emergency medical scissors all the time, it gets expensive.

Most of the stuff is based on wrapping ropes round themselves to create cinches and wraps and suchlike. Ideally, you secure the whole lot with a single knot (a reef knot or double overhand quite often), and when you undo that one knot, the whole thing comes undone (or at least extremely loose) in seconds. Good ropework is safe, comfortable and looks pretty. I'm not finding there's a lot of crossover with the abseiling stuff, TBH.

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[info]katsmeat
2009-03-19 11:19 am UTC (link)
I've never realy thought about it, but that does make a great deal of sense. BDSM safety requires that the knots easily come undone. Climbing safety requires that they DO NOT. And it's not as if the BDSM ropework has to cope with any real loads.

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[info]the_local_echo
2009-03-17 04:39 pm UTC (link)
There seems to be much potential for engineering geekiness in picking a good helmet, although in practice "what the shop has in stock that is comfortable" may win out :-)

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Search.aspx?q=helmet%20test

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